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Want opinions re: New Guild System for Archeage

Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Posted On: 09/05/2015 at 03:55 PM
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I decided to post this here in the Ask The Elders section, because I'm interested in Fog's and other Elder's take on this new guild system that XL Games has decided to implement for Archeage (and Trion's acceptance of).  I'm going to avoid inputting my opinions on the system (for now), because I don't want to influence anyone before they've had a chance to review the system.

I know that Fog is interested in reviewing the guild systems of various games, and ... well, this is a text-book opportunity, especially considering our past relationship with Trion.  So without further ado, here's the linkages:

Heroes Awaken Spotlight: Empower your Guild in Update 2.0

Thread: Heroes Awaken Spotlight: Empower your Guild in Update 2.0

 

(I'm going to keep this Public view-able, because I'm hoping that this will be expert discussion, that will benefit from being shared with the world-wide gaming community.)

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Response:

Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 11:51 AM PDT
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Hm, no one's replied.

Ok, so I guess I should have risked influencing opinion and pointed out the areas of strong concern that I have with this new Guild system that XL Games is giving us, and that Trion has accepted.

Legacy Servers: These servers are those not affected by the Evolution. After Update 2.0 releases, all guild members will be temporarily removed from their guilds. The leader will remain in the guild and will be able to invite up to 100 players back into their guild. While there will later be rules that will prevent guild hopping, these rules will be temporarily disabled until guilds can be stabilized.

While we realize that some guilds do have more than 100 players, we encourage these guilds to create multiple divisions of 100 players that work together in the game’s open world aspects.

 

Now... thoughts?

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 11:57 AM PDT
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Sekkerhund,

I'll take a look at it when it goes live. This game however still encourages the ugliness in people and causes a very hostile play environment. As long as that is a core mechanic I can't say that this would be a good fit for a group like ours. I am playing it however to take a look at the new guild system and hope to review it in the upcoming Guild Systems Deconstructed. 

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Ban Fili de na Ulchabhan Corcra
Soren
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Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 12:10 PM PDT
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The guild limit thing is going to make things challenging for sure from a guild standpoint where guilds like Oran Thul have more than 100 people in their guild. What a nightmare for the guild leaders to have to find everyone, reinvite (still have to be online to get the invite) all while trying to make sure they have enough people around to run the siege wars that are scheduled that weekend. I know if I was leading and my guild had a castle I'd be more than a little miffed considering the costs involved in siege warfare. While it will be a stumbling block for larger communities people will just get around the restriction by setting up multiple guilds and then just for an alliance with them. It will be more work from a guild admin point but it can, and will be done. So if XL's conceren was trying to level the playing field they haven't really accomplished much imho other than shift the players around into bigger alliances.

The system looks like it has some nice perks though and will definitely encourage guilding up. Guild mission quests could be a nice change of pace depending on how they set them up. Getting guild exp just by playing is a nice touch though, saves on the crazy grind.

The forced PvP for guilds wanting to progress past level 3 is something that bothers me. Especially since you can fight in hostile or peace zones. From my understanding any guild can declare war on any guild and the that declaration gets auto-accepted with no time for the defending guild to prepare. Talk about griefers paradise. Find a guild doing pack runs in a peace zone, declare, and hoo-boy watch the salt tears flow.

I haven't had a chance to hop on the PTS so hopefully things work out in the end.

If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 12:14 PM PDT
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This has nothing to do with GSCH playing Archeage, as a matter of fact, I've been 100% against it ever since the 2nd month.

Per my original post:

I decided to post this here in the Ask The Elders section, because I'm interested in Fog's and other Elder's take on this new guild system that XL Games has decided to implement for Archeage (and Trion's acceptance of).

Then..

I know that Fog is interested in reviewing the guild systems of various games, and ... well, this is a text-book opportunity, especially considering our past relationship with Trion.

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 12:29 PM PDT
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Also, this new guild system is currently on the PTS. 

Ok, so my purpose to writing this, was that I was hoping to get build some influence to get its implementation stopped, because due to what I outlined above, I see this as potentially damaging to the player base.

One example, is that Players don't read news on the Launcher, so what's going to happen when they log in and realize they no longer have a guild?  Sure, it will work itself out but, I can foresee a lot of negative fallout.

Another is that large guilds are going to have to split their members and alts up, and try to figure out who needs to go into which guild.  The language in the Trion announcement, indicates that they hope that guilds will build "Specialty rooms", I assume kind of like what GSCH does/did with GW2.  A problem here, is "100 characters".

Still yet another, is that there is no "alliance chat" system in the game, nor is there a system to make custom chat channels.  Satellite guilds will be stuck with VOIP in order to communicate with each other.

 (there's more, but I'll stop here)

Maybe its just me, because the Navy trained me on "crisis management", which allows me to formulate a line of "worst case scenarios" that can occur and possible solutions to avoid and/or fix them, so I am very concerned about this going live (as are others, based on the forum posts).

Since GSCH are the "Gaming Community Experts", I'm hoping there is an opportunity for some positive outcomes, here.  Unfortunately, the clock is ticking, so this may very well turn into a post-mortem discussion, rather than a crisis prevention.



» Edited on: 2015-09-08 12:30:58

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 01:26 PM PDT
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Unfortunately Sek, Our voices fall of deaf ears. How well have we been able to shape ArenaNet's Alliance system, or ZeniMax's Allaince system. I can make suggestions however the general consensus in the industry is that large guilds destroy community in MMO's.No matter what I suggest, guilds like GOON have spoiled any chance of developers listening to our perspectives on this topic. What game published in the last 5 years does support more than 500 people? Even neverwinter cut back on guild size. The next gen is looking like 250 for caps. Look at skyforge. You start with 9 characters. The industry is pushing for smaller guilds so nothing I say is going to fall in line with their direction. Additionally I have never been able to influence Asian companies. They don't care about us at all. Trion is only the publisher for the US. They don't have say in what pieces XL Games pushes over. When I talked to Scott the only thing they can change is UI and Language. Everything else is handled by XL Games.



» Edited on: 2015-09-08 14:08:01

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/08/2015 at 06:40 PM PDT
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That's exactly my concern:  That the "next-gen" MMOs are moving towards smaller and smaller guild sizes.  Waelwulfas never really had more than 150 at its peak, but this new trend towards

I'm a very old gamer.  I don't talk about myself, much, but I have a detailed history (involvement) with the development of the 3D (1st/3rd person) MMORPG genre.  (Actually, gaming in general, once upon a time long ago, I worked for Gary, but that's a tale for another time) When I'd heard that Brad (Aradune) had put together a team and developed Everquest, based on our discussions several years back, I was ecstatic that we were going to see our dreams of graphical "total immersion" MUDs come to reality. 

So, no, I do not like the direction I am seeing development taking with these games.  This is not what we had dreamed about while playing text games.

Anyway, I don't believe that this direction is where we, as MMORPG players, want to see things go.  The industry is motivated by fast, quick money due to market saturation, leading to a shorter shelf life for a MMOG, therefore developers and publishers seem to care less and less about their player's wishes (the decision makers in upper management, at least).

Despite that, I do I believe that we can influence the industry, exactly because we are in a large gaming community.  We have a very broad-spectrum sample of the player-base, w/varying interests, experiences, and tastes and the very fact that GSCH does draw professionals in the industry, should indicate that we have more influence on the industry than we think.

 

Korea: 

I believe that we are looking at the twilight of their "MMOG development boom", as more and more Asian publishers and developers are moving away from the MMOG model and moving towards multi-player mobile game development.  The MMORPG developers that will most likely remain (PearlAbyss Corp) seem like they have a more amiable attitude towards publishing for the NA/EU markets and should be much more approachable.  I was encouraged by the comments that you (Fog) had made the other night, regarding the folks @ Pearl and their plans for BDO.

 

I may have hid in the shadows for the last decade-ish, but I'll come out and claw, kick and scream if I need to, before I let this MMO gaming genre go the way of the dodo.  I may not have the contacts that I used to, but there is a solution and it may take some time, but I will find it.



» Edited on: 2015-09-08 18:46:35

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Banlaoch de na Griobhta Dearg
Briseadh
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Replied On: 09/09/2015 at 10:10 AM PDT
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I can't put any input in on this game particularly as I actually got bored with it by L10.  I will agree with Fog that the trend has been towards smaller guilds and know of the group he mentions here that did not help the devs like big groups.  I might be able to influence other games coming out, but not an existing one, and especially not an Asian one.  All my ties are US and Europe and mostly in games not coming out for TWO years.

Don't mess with Mama Bear, I might hug you too tight. =D
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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/09/2015 at 01:28 PM PDT
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Yea, well its too late for this one.  This is where my time and money is going right now, so it's continued success if of great interest to me.  (for now)  A guild that I am in for East side  (Insomnia), is trying to make it work, it actually looks like we're going to merge with two other guilds (actually one is the remnants of HoL, currently known as Intrepedus ).  Right now its sounding like there will be 2 guilds for sure, maybe 3.

What boggles my mind, is that Trion actually tried to promote this multiple guild split thing, as a positive.  If anyone, and I do mean anyone, knows about the P.I.T.A. of running a multiple room guild, with no alliance chat or custom channels... it is Gaiscioch.  Given that we have some Trion staff as members, they should know this.  Amirite?

Large guild, small guild, it doesn't matter, this is ridiculous.  The guild I am in for AA, isn't even really considered a "large" guild, possibly not even a "medium", and the officers are saying that if it was a 200 member cap... it would be a lot easier on them.

Anyway, yea, I'm going to start watching future games.  Purposely crippling the social structure of a massively multi-player game is just dumb, and if the developers don't want to listen, then maybe I can get their investors' attention.  Just because Goon Squad took their forum troll army and ran over a server on a couple of games, for a couple of months, doesn't work as an excuse to take "preventative measures" against similar occurrences.

Those troll army guilds don't last long.  They zerg a game, then burn out in a couple of months.  They have a very, very short half-life.

Gaiscioch is a shining example, that you can have a large social gaming community, and have a positive LONG-LASTING effect on, not just a server, but a game. 

THAT is what developers need to notice and be focusing on.



» Edited on: 2015-09-09 13:29:44

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/09/2015 at 02:12 PM PDT
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Now then, a couple of things:

First off, it doesn't matter if XL Games won't listen.  What matters is that Trion will.  Trion can refuse this feature, they've done it with a few other features that would bring a negative experience to our regional version.  I knew this when I posted, so yes, I had the hopeful expectation that maybe we could make a difference.

Secondly, I haven't posted about how this "guild nerf" affects ME as a player.  I'll talk about "now" and "after", give a little insight to how this changes my gaming experience in a ... less than desirable manner.

Now:

I am in a guild.  I have two characters that I play, both are in the guild.  Neither is a main or an alt:  Both characters are level 50+, both are similarly geared, one is for farming and tradepack runs, the other is for crafting.  I play both equally in non-crafting content (PvP, events, etc) and both have different combat professions.

When I want to participate with my guild, I do not have to pick just one, I can choose either, depending on which I feel will best work with whatever we're doing.  Also, land in Archeage has "permissions", one of which is "guild", so I can make use of all structures set to "guild use" with both characters.

I also don't have to worry about choosing one or the other to socialize with my guild.  If we're going to PvP, I can choose whichever I think will help the most and go fight other players with my guild.

Of most importance though, I do not have to designate one as a "main" and one as an "alt".

 

After these guild changes:

My guild has decided to create 2 guilds:  One will be for "carebear" activities, farming, tradepack running, "safe zone" socializing, etc.  The other will be a "guild war" PVP guild, which will not have "safe zone" areas during a guild war.  This means "carebear" activities, such as farming and tradepack running are not safe.

These guilds will be limited to 100 players.  Since we are merging with two other guilds, seating will be limited.  In Archeage, a character can only belong to one guild, its not like GW2 and ESO where you can belong to several at once.

So, due to these new changes, I will now have to choose which character I want to have in the guild.  I will have to designate one as a "main" and one as an "alt.  The main will be guilded, the alt will not be guilded.

On top of that. I have to choose which type of guild "room" I wish to participate in, its either the "Carebear" or the "Guild warring" guild.  Which means that I am now restricted to having to choose what type of activity I want do with my guild.  Guild wars are restricted by participating guilds, so players who are not a member of either guild, can not participate or assist.

So to TL;DR:  Right now, I have no problems or decisions to make with what character I play, or what content I want to participate in with my guild.  But, once these changes go live, I will have decisions to make and will have to skip or miss out on something.

Yea, sure I will probably figure out a way... but is this a little more clear for everyone now?  Do you all understand why I've been saying that this is "not a positive change"?

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Replied On: 09/09/2015 at 02:21 PM PDT
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So, lets take the Archeage aspect out of this now.  As I said before, and Fog commented on, as well, there is a current trend by developers in moving towards smaller and smaller guilds.  Players are going to losing freedoms of choice, that they currently enjoy, by having to make these same decisions. 

Developers have to be made aware, that these games, are by intent of design, large scale social tools of entertainment.  To purposely neuter this primary feature of online games, is detrimental to the genre and ultimately, will be the failure and demise of the MMORPG.  There's just so much that can be improved upon, and they're going in the wrong direction.

 

So there you are.  My concerns in a nutshell.  :)

 



» Edited on: 2015-09-09 14:22:31

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